3D!Bee's ban from my POV
Hey guys i'll try to give you my opinion on the case (at first i wrote that i would write a short post KEKW), I was contacted around 1 month ago and was asked my opinion on bee and his recent performances, at first i was a bit confused, at this moment in time i've had a few games vs bee in RTW, (a bo3 that he won in quarter final where i didn't feel anything fishy since i was just playing terrible while on vacation, and a BO5 where he destroyed me 3-0 that lead me to look at the replay more closely, not from an investigator POV but from someone who wants to learn POV, from what i remember i just felt like playing against an ape that improved alot on his multitask and his overall mechanics, i honestly felt like for the first time since aoe4 released i was outplayed mechanicly especially in term of reaction time/multitask, that would happen frequently on sc2 vs alot of incredible players so it didnt really bother me or make me suspicious, i know who I am and i am not the best rts player of all time, so seeing someone being better than me in this area while i'm slightly out of shape isn't honestly surprising,
SO 1MONTH AGO, i joined a group of top top players (no idea if they want to be named but beasty got into this group 1 day after me to only name him) that showed me a few replays concerning bee, i'm gonna be honest i didn't trust him from my past interactions with him both on aoe4 AND sc2 , but that doesnt change the fact that this is game breaking, not only for his life but also for the health of the scene, we can't be suspicious about him we have to be sure about this accusation, so I felt like i was trying to look at this case from this "lawier" POV and try to justify his play as much as i could ! So yeah maybe i've lost a few hundred bucks and maybe the tournament integrity in the near future would be at risk, but I was hoping that we would have a few more weeks to look at, and we got indeed a few more weeks, at first i was shown 3 replays :
BEE vs Demuslim/me and vs beastyqt from this tournament ON FOUR LAKES : https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Red_Bull_Wololo_Legacy/2022/AoE4/Road_to_Wololo/August/2
Important information only the games vs me and beastyqt are uploaded on youtube, sadly's not demuslim and i don't have any recording or anything related to this case as i think its fair to say its no my business to do that
First look at it i'm slightly confused at how he is reacting to being docked, the meta on this map is to simply wall your lakes so you are safe, so from my POV you could argue for his case that vs demuslim and beastyqt he spotted the very early dock by trying to build palisades, the game wouldnt allow it because thats how it works, if something is there you can't build over it (Beasty showed his game live, Bee did literally the same thing vs demuslim where he pulls villagers/scout to a dock he didn't naturally spot, but could have spotted only with palisades being impossible to build . Still i'll be checking later if he often tries to spot docks this way . Against me something different happened, i actually looked at the game and didn't feel like it was that suspicious, only one move got me legit confused from his POV, at 4min 58 ingametime ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HSMblG5rMo&t=4m45s ) he decided to pull 3 villagers to dock me, as i was building my wall and saw his villagers coming i thought he saw the hole and that he decided to punish me, BUT his scout was on the left side of the map so it was just a pure gamble from him or something else, who knows maybe he evens scans all the possible spot in my wall (which is forbidden and considered "bug abused") and see a hole there and decide to take his chance, when i played it i thought that i was a fool and he simply scouted and reacted to it, reality is that he didn't scout it and just went for a gamble, that would have not surprised me with one villager to be honest, but with 3 i was legit confused he must know for a fact that there is a problem in my wall . Rest of this game looked normal to me i even sneaked a dock at some points, that got spotted to but the game was already GG at this point thanks to his early dock on my side and a good follow up .
Another two things to add is a few movement into the fog of war, but its always extremely hard to prove anything with those unless its repetitive, and another fact, he got very lucky with his deer scouting/denying+wolves and sheep finding in those 3 games, once again that can be luck right
A point I want to quickly talk about is his 1 scout style on some maps including 4 lakes, it doesnt really shock me in some case, as you want as much economy as possible on those maps to boost your fishing production as soon as possible, but playing hunting cabin to just add wheelbarrow sounds a bit weird to me in this case, on another note if you are very lucky it can be smart to not add an extra scout, i'd never do that as its just unnecessary risk and scouts are always incredibly usefull as the game goes on (maybe not for everyone), so just saying this doesnt shock me its just another interesting data .
Conclusion i had after checking those 3 games ONLY :
If i had to take the bet i'd say most likely he is gonna have issues, he can only justify some of those plays (vs demuslim and beastyqt) with something we aren't allowed to do aka abusing walls vision and buildings to spot foundations, or that he got very very lucky with the timing he checked, but he isn't guilty yet by any mean so i'm just gonna look closely at whats coming up next, and overall lets say that this guy got very lucky for now
BUT i'm gonna watch out few next weeks to see if the guy is actually very careful about docks, if he actually scans regularly in the fog of war, if he is still getting insane sheep/hunt RNG !
Then I checked one game vs me on basin from this weekly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeUebb2caA0&ab_channel=EGCTV-AgeofEmpires4), once again you can't say much about it, but the way he plays it vs someone playing an army made of cavalry just confuses me, at 12Min, he goes for his berries and starts dropping his proscout deer there, like its a super safe place, doesn't bother to wall or to get any vision,just surprising to me considering how cheap it would be to secure this spot with around 50wood of walls .
THEN i checked the other games vs demuslim and I, alot of shitty useless games (the TC rush one with mongols) that are honestly not super helpful when you want to prove that someone is hacking, only one other game from this week felt really weird, the one vs beastyqt on arabia, i remember casting it live and felt like this was maybe gonna change the meta, so i looked at it more closely since i was looking for knowledge ! It's a very weird game that doesnt prove anything by itself, but reminded me exactly of a game he played vs me ( when he 3-0ed me in final one month before), in this game he would play abbassides vs beasty's french, honestly taking great slightly risky decisions during the game ( i hope beasty saved this game from bee's pov entirely) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noyvh7dkT28&ab_channel=EGCTV-AgeofEmpires4
So here i want to give you my insights about this game from a decent player POV : in this game he goes one scout ABBA (totally normal to me) i'm gonna give you a list that things that bothered me : First from my experience once french age up i want to see whats happening in his base, do you go 4/3 or none on gold, 4 would mean a continual knight production, 3 most likely one or two knights then probably a TC or a transition, 0 simply a TC with 1 or 0 knights depending on how much gold is left in the gold pit, here he doesn't really care about this data, his scout his scouting for more map data (relics? maybe a second boar to keep an eye at in case the french wants it?) and isn't scared at all of the first french knight, most likely the knight will attack where the scouts are attacking, but i wouldnt take the risk of having a villager dying at my berries/my wood because i was simply not scouting . But hey we are different players and maybe its not something that worries him and we value priority differently. Then his scout goes to beasty's base to get some data, at this point i woul still be scared about my defenses being weak, but beasty doesnt try to punish him, or doesnt expect him to be slightly greedy . Then something happens that honestly gave him an invisible lead and was surprising but smart, he goes for a tc in the middle on deer/berries, i would be scared but he saw beasty moving south to where the obvious tc would be made, so hey thats a beautiful decision that sounds very risky but why not, overall takes a few trades that i would consider stupid as you could lose alot but that worked this time, at 9min in the video beasty goes for a raid, bee is on point while sending horsemen cross map to potentially find value (he found alot of archers kill) at 9min 40 here comes the first mistake from bee, but this mistake is a weird one from his POV, he saw the knights coming to the right and sent his pikes to this spot, then sent them away to his stone (where beastys scout is but bee doesnt have the info), he leaves himself open to something he just saw so thats a big mistake but that can happen, he went for a stone defense with his pikes (one scout from his opponent sitting there) as he wants to grab more and totally forgot to defend the knights , then goes for a hunt on the knights, good choice, once again a surprising choice, while chasing knights he decides to take his whole army to go for a counter, in a Match up where i would tend to play defensively except if i get map vision, thats where bee's style is a bit crazy, he doesnt make extra scouts or towers/walls he just plays naked , and got rewarded for it this game which is just surprising and not a real proof, i'd honestly not have found this game that weird if he made i don't know another scout, or some walls to make sure a runby can't come from top part of the map, but that wasnt his choice, so now bee is ahead and decides to play super aggresively, and never rally points or send any unit to defend potential runby coming to his gold/wood . He is simply confident enough that he can kill or win from this position, you can't say he counted beastys knight but no you literally can't predict the exact amount of knight your opponents wants to make, that sounds possible but considering how little data he got, no its not the case, another crazy move that got rewarded is at 11min he sends 11villagers to a deer patch, i was a bit confused at this to, why not but once again i'd expect a knight or a scout to see this move and be scared of any runby/attack coming to those villagers (even if its one knight) so i would send 2pikes with this group of villager, or just a scout . Not much to say the game was already over, just another very good defense at 12Min45 on the knights, for once he covered all the options and moved his berries villagers back to base .
Something else i hate from a player's pov at 13minutes, he goes around the back of beastys base to go on the berries, its a good choice if harass isn't coming but a bad choice if the opposite is true, you are an abbassides player with a favored match up in midlategame, i'd tend to play more for the logical choice of controlling the middle and the wings to make sure knights don't move in my villager line .
So this game doesnt give us a clear 100% maphack vibe once again, its just weird and it just feels like we can start looking for things in the next few weeklies, to see patterns OR lack of patterns against dock plays, maybe once again some plays where he doesnt cover alot of options but only cover a single option, the right one, or if he simply got a very very very good game with some "lucky" choice, also some insane reaction times on some units/villagers moves that are clearly not impossible but just surprisingly very fast and well played .
NOW AT THIS POINT WHAT IS THE DATA IN MY HANDS TLDR :
FROM WATCHING THOSE GAMES and adding all the data together, I legit start to think ok maybe a good 75% chances he is maphacking, but until its 100% maybe i'm just a clown who knows less about this game than him
I KNOW and you can check he has a vac ban on another game on his steam account , just another small hint, someone hacking once would give me a harder time trusting him
He used to be top 10 to 20 world depending on moments, clearly a good player but has changed style (meta evolved so not really crazy right) and has improved his multitask/reaction time DRASTICALLY, he used to be an ape with crazy builds, either terrible or very good, but then if you had a good macro game vs him he used to be a freewin (to me) as he was too slow to react to things, now he is insanely good in every way possible, his builds are still sometimes good/bad, but mechanicly he is on point , except that to me he is clearly lacking in vision and has a bad approach of taking map controls, but if he can prove me that you don't need map control to win in this meta, i'll be glad to learn .
After golden league he dissapeared, i thought he retired, THEN comes back to the game but has totally changed his approach, ladder is not his way to practice, he stopped streaming while he used to be pretty active on twitch, and he doesnt practice with anyone from the top top players, after investigating a bit we learn that he is practicing with COINNU (top 20-32 world), and with garnath on his smurf (his team mate, don't want to be rude but he is factually not super well ranked, maybe lets say top 64 top 128 world?)
SO NOW WE MOVE TO WEEKLY NUMBER 3 AUGUST : https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Red_Bull_Wololo_Legacy/2022/AoE4/Road_to_Wololo/August/3
This weekly he lost in RO8 to puppypaw . I took a close look at his games, FIRST vs capoch in ro16, not super interesting games, kawasan leads to a one sided game that doesnt help, and then frisian marshes happens, another one sided game, only one thing bothered me he looked at some point in the fog of war to check capoch's stone (important to know if he is going 2TC in feudal), so once again maybe he is abusing palisade, which i say again is against the rules, (maybe he doesnt know what can i say) or there is something else
BUT THEN the games vs puppypaw happened (important to know he wasnt officialy casted on the moment but the interesting game got uploaded by aussiedrongo another time to his channel : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtuvdJIIT8U&ab_channel=Aussie_Drongo , not very helpfull this way because it isnt casted from bee's POV),
Kawasan once again a map that leads to a pretty uninteresting game from our investigators POV, its just whoever wins water and the middle wins the game/ not a map where you need good map control
Four lakes, weird strategy from puppypaw , pretty quick game, once again good RNG from bee's perspective in term of hunt, as i said i would keep checking for this pattern, and still the same pattern with docks
THEN ALTAI HAPPENS, if you show the entire 7first min of the game to anyone, from BEE's POV you just get stunned and confused at what is happening, he is legit watching through the fog of war MULTIPLE times in puppy's base, looking at his stone multiple times, looking at the scout in the fog of war, and looking at his opponent moving out with villagers when he wants to drop a barbican midmap, so here from the lawier's pov, i've honestly nothing to defend him, this is a clear strong game to accuse someone of maphacking, and i'm honestly curious to know what he has to say about this game, same once again for his next decision without scouting his opponents base, he doesnt know if puppy is making any units or not, he goes for a proxy TC in his opponents face and didn't make any extra unit to support this "push" , that would be literally GG instantly if there are units coming out . I just dont understand this game at all so i'm just gonna leave it there .
From my POV, i really thought he was hacking, i wasn't sure exactly how, if its a normal maphacks he can toggle on/off, if its some sort of radar or whatever .
After that , the next week was the monthly, I know that bee got the information that he was being "investigated" or "suspected", i don't know exactly why, a few days before playing those matches), which caught me a bit offguard as i wanted to keep watching him especially in this showmatch format that has less value, he went 2-6 in maps vs me beastyqt leenock and puppypaw, in some weird match ups i honestly didn't take a close look at those games since to me they totally lost value since he knew he was looked at . Then he won this last weekly and once again since he knows its too hard i only felt
From that point i didn't really help much, i'm not sure what i can exactly say so i'm gonna keep it light , the investigation was at this point more on the tournament admin/redbull/relics, they simply contacted the small group of players (including me) to make sure they didn't miss on anything before the final decision, we didn't have anything to add (1 week ago) .
Once again i repeat i was part of the last group of player that helped the investigation but i wasnt involved in the final decision .
I was honestly too lazy to check in details this last weekly, also a bit annoyed that he knew he was looked at, so i just was trying to give myself the best chance to win (from my POV vs a maphacker), so didn't try too much multiprong attack but just a solid play, wasn't enough for me just thought something was weird on basin from his POV at 10MIN50, where i move in to harass with a single knights and send his army perfectly in time while locking his camera on it when he arrives like he expects something to be there, and also the four lakes vs beasty he had extremely good RNG, and some good "lucky" plays, guess its his lucky map .
Final facts are relics looked into it and made this decision by theirselves with more data than me .
MY conclusion from MY POV : It would be so much easier to prove if we had a slightly better observing tool, and if I/We could go back in time to check older replays, WITH ONLY WHAT IVE SEEN AND LOOKED AT the past month, I think bee is guilty .
Do whatever you want with this i'm not the judge, I am not almighty you can start to make your own opinion about this topic with this reddit post, and with beasty's stream/content ! If not more to come .
I've taken 5hours of my life to write this so you pleb would better understand this case, you better stop shitting on me in twitch chat you bunch of freaking baboons, i hope its appreciated .