John Numbers · @JohnNumbers
17th Nov 2018 from TwitLonger
Clearing Up Misconceptions On Stage Information and Legality in Smash Ultimate
Hey everyone. John Numbers here.
I've been seeing a lot of discussion going around lately, in regards to the stages to be used in competitive Ultimate play. I've also been seeing a good amount of misconceptions about said stages, as well. I'd like to help clarify some facts (and opinions) about the stages, fueled by discussions with PGStats, among other people. Helping to clear the air will be really useful in stagelist discussions down the road, so here we go.
Before anything else, we need to talk about the Hazard toggle. There's a good amount of contention between whether or not the toggle should always remain Off, or if it should be used as a Hybrid, allowing players to switch the toggle between On and Off in the middle of sets. I don't have a strong opinion on this point one way or the other. The main deciding factor behind whether or not it will be used heavily depends on whether or not TOs are willing to risk the logistical issues associated with allowing players to touch this toggle in the middle of sets, all for the sake of having a few more legal stages. As I said, I don't mind either way, so I'll take the hazardous versions of stages into account from here on out.
For the sake of clarity, any stage mentioned will be assumed to have its Hazards Off. If I want to specifically refer to a stage with Hazards On, there will be a "!H" at the end of it (for example, "Smashville!H").
With that in mind, that brings me to the first stages for discussion:
Smashville!H, Town and City!H, Fountain of Dreams!H, Yoshi's Story!H (Legality: Maybe)
For all four of these stages with their Hazards On, most I've talked to are in agreement that all of these are all legal stages on their own merits. The real point of contention here is in regards to the logistical issues caused by allowing players to change the Hazard toggle midset. I won't get into it here, but one of the biggest concerns is that players may mistakenly play on PS2!H because they forgot to change the toggle, and won't realize that they've made a mistake until 58 seconds into the match. Something like this happening on a big stage could have seriously negative implications on the scene as a whole. That said, though, if you believe that it's worth it for the scene to shoulder this risk, then yes, these stages absolutely should be legal, and no one is currently denying that. Anyway, if you see any stagelists that have these Hazards On stages banned, now you know why.
Battlefield/Omega versions of stages (Legality: Yes),
A big reason that Omega stages were largely outlawed in Sm4sh was due to the fact that they all featured varying layouts, in terms of shape, size, and blastzone. This tended to give a stronger advantage to players who favored playing on Final Destination, as they had more layouts to choose from to cover more options in terms of matchups, etc. This point will be touched on later, but not now. In Ultimate, the Battlefield and Omega versions of stages have all been reworked to feature the exact same shape, size, platform layout, and blastzones. This has effectively standardized the stages in all ways aside from aesthetic, and so they should be legalized as stages as they add variety to the legal stagelist with zero competitive complications.
It should be noted, though, if there are any Battlefield/Omega stages that affect gameplay (such as how Sm4sh's grassy floors and 2D stages affected gameplay), or if there are any stages that cause copyright issues for streamers (Midgar immediately comes to mind, as an example), then those stages' Battlefield/Omega forms should be banned on a case-by-case basis.
Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, Midgar (Legality: No)
With Hazards Off, these stages assume a form similar to Battlefield, but with differences from Battlefield, in terms of shape, size, platform arrangement, or blastzone. I need to explain why it would not be a good thing to have these stages legal for competition.
As I just mentioned, we have the option to change every single stage into a Battlefield or Omega variant of itself. And as I said, these are cool, standardized, and absolutely should be legal. However, something very important happened with the creation of these stages. When these stages were made, it was made so the shape, size, platform layout, and blastzones were exactly the same between each stage. Because of this, we have been given a standard for what we should consider to be "Battlefield" (and "Final Destination"). For the Hazards Off versions of the stages in this topic, all of them become Battlefield "echo stages" in that they are similar in a lot of respects, but differ in some ways, even if it's just by a bit. I would argue that we should not deviate from this very deliberate design choice, but here are some more compelling points...
The main reason against allowing echo stages like these is simply because it grants too much power to a player who wants to counterpick to a triplat stage. This should already be obvious, but if we had a ruleset where Battlefield, YS, FoD, DL, and Midgar were all legal as separate stages, then a player who wants to counterpick a triplat layout is GUARANTEED to get it unless there are 5 bans written into the ruleset (6 if you wanted to cover Lylat, too).
Obviously, one could argue that the echo stages should be combined together into a single stage choice, like how Battlefield and DL were combined in Sm4sh. However, while this fixes the immediate problem stated above, it still causes the Battlefield combo pack to have way too much counterpick power during the counterpick phase. Using Battlefield as the example; for a player who likes the triplat layout, if they get to counterpick to it, then they get the pick of the lot between five slightly different Battlefield layouts, which can provide differing advantages to the player depending on character choice, etc. If we compare this to someone who wants to counterpick, for example, SV, Lylat, or WarioWare, that player only gains access to the sole layout of that one stage, with no deviations available to them. It causes stages to have a lopsided amount of power from each other during the counterpick phase overall.
Of course, you could just say to spend your ban on the BF combo pack, but the fact of the matter is, this selection is natrually more polarizing, and will naturally draw in a larger amount of bans. If there's even one inconvenient layout within the grouping, then you would forced to spend your ban on the entire lot. In fact, we've already seen this issue with BF and DL being combined into a single stage pick in Sm4sh, and that was only combining two stages together. This grouping solution ultimately ends up causing way too much of an imbalance between the stages during the CP phase.
So here's my main point. Considering all of the imbalances and problems caused by including echo stages, the best solution to approaching them is to just ban them completely (or, failing that, legalize them exclusively under the Gentleman's Agreement).
(Also, if you have some emotional attachment to YS, FoD, DL64, or Midgar, OR if you want to have more visual variety within tournament play do not forget you can just select their standardized Battlefield form and enjoy the stage aesthetics that way. There is literally no difference.)
Wily Castle, Umbra Clock Tower, Pictochat (Legality: No)
With Hazards Off, these stages assume a form similar to Final Destination, but with differences from Final Destination/Omega stages. Using the same reasoning given for BF echo stages, these Final Destination echo stages should also not be legal/relegated to Gentleman's only.
Pokemon Stadium 1, Unova Pokemon League (Legality: No)
With Hazards Off, these stages assume a form similar to Pokemon Stadium 2, but with differences from Pokemon Stadium 2. Again, using the same reasoning given for BF echo stages, these Pokemon Stadium 2 echo stages should ALSO not be legal/relegated to Gentleman's only.
Yoshi's Island (Legality: Maybe)
For the Hazards Off version of Yoshi's Island, the middle platform does not tilt, Fly Guys do not spawn, and the saving ghost platforms do not appear offstage. Overall, this stage is very clearly a legal stage, but some people have made the argument that it should not be legal, on the premise that it is too similar to hazardless Smashville (similar to the arguments I just laid out for the BF/FD/PS2 echo stages). I personally do not agree with this, as YI has a lot of differences to distinguish itself from SV. On top of the slanted ground of the mainstage and the walled ledges, the middle platform covers a larger proportion of the stage than SV's does, which lends itself to a much higher focus on center stage control and platform pressure. Regardless, if you've been seeing some stagelists floating around that do not have YI legal, this is the reason why. If you don't agree, then make the argument that YI and SV are different enough that they should be considered as their own stages.
Town and City (Legality: No)
For the Hazards Off version of Town and City, the platforms do not move within each transformation, but will still move on and off the stage in order to transition between the two layouts. For the 3-platform layout, there aren't any issues, as the middle platform remains at its lowest position. The real problems come in when the 2-platform layout of the stage comes out. During this transformation, the platforms remain static, at their furthest positions off the stage. With the layout like this, most characters are forced to commit in order to pressure opponents camping on the platforms, and will ultimately lead to unfair/janky situations. Ness will be able to Fthrow you at 0. Cloud will be able to camp Limit Charge. Sonic will be able to get off the platform and run to the other one once you've begun to commit to getting up there. Overall, the hazardless version of this stage lends itself to a lot of unfair situations, and would better off being banned as a whole.
Final Destination (Yes): No changes.
Battlefield (Yes): No changes.
Smashville (Yes): Platform is static in the middle of the stage. Provides a unique, new layout for competition.
Lylat Cruise (Yes): Stage no longer tilts. What was once a janky gimmick has now become a brand new layout for competition.
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Yes): Stage does not transform. Incredible layout that will probably replace SV as the most chosen stage.
Kalos Pokemon League (Yes): Features 2-plat layout, but the platforms are partially off the stage in this case. Distinct enough from PS2 to be considered its own stage.
WarioWare (Yes): Features a good, unique layout. Microgames do not occur, and it appears that the blastzones have been made larger.
Arena Ferox (Maybe): Features a good, unique layout that does not transform. Might be too big to be legal for Singles.
Gamer (Maybe): Features a good, unique layout that's always the same, every time. Might be too big to be legal for Singles.
Super Mario Maker (Maybe): Features a good, unique layout that's always the same, every time. Might be too big to be legal for Singles.
Brinstar (Maybe): No longer features acid, and there are no hittable obstacles. It can be sharked, so unsure if legal for Singles.
Skyloft (Maybe): Does not transform, and features a good, unique layout. It can be sharked, so unsure if legal for Singles.