PG | SKD @ Home... · @SuperKawaiiDesu
1st Dec 2015 from TwitLonger
ODGC, EA, DETERRENCE, IDEAL OFFENSIVE STRUCTURE, AND YOU
Hi, I'm writing this on my phone so. Ok.
Because everyone is talking about THE GUESSING GAMES OF GCOD AND EA OH NO...I want to clarify some things.
A few things to keep in mind when trying to fight vs gcod...
First, let's look at it on a frame data level. As far as I can tell gcod doesn't seem to have sped up in its total duration, but even if it did thinking about how to approach it on offense takes many of the same things into account so if anything this is a practice in application.
GCOD: 1+23
EA: 10f startup on hold version (I'm taking this number on faith, I haven't verified it myself)
First, I'll talk about gcod! One major attribute to consider is the first frame superflash. GCOD, by nature, benefits most from canceling out of blockstun as early as possible, otherwise you give up punish opportunities.
Late gcod's can end up increasing the frame disadvantage you put yourself at thanks to the lengthy total duration. With the existence of ea, this isn't nearly as bad unless your opponent /really/ takes advantage of the extra recovery frames (they can, more on that later), but yeah.
Plus you miss out on immediate gatling whiff punishes, so why wouldn't you odgc asap every time? Well, the first frame flash means it's super easy to delay inputs by hairs and have the od flash eat them.
Something like Izayoi 5c slight delay 2c (where the 5c is guard cancelled asap) letting you use the flash to respond accordingly to the gcod. For Izayoi, this is a free iad jB meaty safe jump if she delays cancel from a jump cancelable move.
Effectively, even if you ea it'll theoretically get osed and you've just wasted your burst to eat pressure that covers mashing, dps, backdash, jump. All because Izayoi delayed her string by a couple of frames, losing nothing.
So, what happens if you gcod...late? To try to whiff punish a delayed gatling? Suddenly, you've turned it into a bad guessing game where the wager is your burst. Not only do you need to odgc precisely when they cancel, you let them get away with safer immediate cancels??? But isn't that just rps??
This brings me to IDEAL pressure establishment: delayed gatlings with moves that simply can't be punished by gcod. I'll take a string as an example, Izayoi doing 2a delay 2a delay 5c delay 236d. Straight up, if you odgc this string at any point you've probably wasted your burst, and it serves as a good basis for hard to disrespect pressure. None of this loses its potency in frame traps with delays. Hell, the only point in delaying it isn't for safety, it's to maximize the punish for an early odgc with next to no risk attached.
I'll run through the gatlings and talk about the points of contention. Izayoi is one of the characters with the best ODGC option cover, so this is mainly just conceptual. Not a lot of characters can do this, but try to scrape out the ideas and run something similar :<
-2a delay 2a: oh boy. immediate gc od ends up getting covered with projectile cancel on flash > teleport (reversal safe!) or straight up recovering and dash jA or something if they cancel a bit later into the recovery, before your delayed button comes out.
If they happen to ODGC on the EXACT FRAME that you cancel your jab into /another fuckin jab/, congratulations. She is only +5 instead of + a billion and you have earned the right to /guess again/.
At this point, you've already expended your burst. Potentially, if you GCod later into the startup, she can 2A again and meaty your ODGC recovery and still block the EA. So, you've gotten pretty lucky to be able to maybe gamble! wow!
In broad analysis, actually pressuring after the ODGC flash on a whiff 2a isn't a bad choice, even if you do get hit by EA you minimize risk to probably 2k + opponent expending AF (which isn't ENTIRELY good for them) vs accidentally letting them out and maybe getting mixed up while theyre in overdrive. But, hey, they "earned" the guessing game at this point with that super precise OD! Imagine, if you did 2A 2A immediately and they tried to delay their ODGC and instead OD'd immediately on the second 2A, giving you the projectile option cover. Wow, it's almost like ODGC is a bad idea and ends up negative in both the early, precise, and delayed situations.
Surely, this is only one gatling???? Lets go on to the 5C.
-2A 5C: well, same shit. If they ODGC on the first frame of startup, you're negative, but virtually unpunishable outside of kagura super (26f total duration, lmfao). If they ODGC late, they can potentially odgc by the time 5C has already hit them, opening up the next option set. if they OD on time, you are safe. If they OD gc before you cancel, you get option cover from the flash. Pretty much the same stuff.
-5C 236D: honestly, you could substitute sjIAD jA instead of saber and it still does the same thing?? Regardless, a delayed projectile cancel, ODGC on first frame does not let you challenge it unless you have some wonky ass backwards hitbox. If the ODGC is done during 5C recovery before the delayed cancel is done, you can IAD jB and cover jump startup, punish backdash, OS ea's, etc. cool. Reward is highest for this without spending the resources. Whatever, im sure you get it.
So, when do you ODGC this string? Guess what!! You don't!!! The risk/reward is so fucked up and she has safe options (the most important thing) that make it so that even if you do get past the first layer of guessing, you are still only guessing at the second, with no ensured reward at the cost of your burst. Would you really wager your burst for that?
Surely, this DEGREE of option cover is pretty exclusive to izayoi, she's got a good moveset for demanding respect. But the concepts do apply to many characters. Platinum can tk swallow moon safe jump after flash. Arakune can IAD jB. There are a bunch of ways to take advantage of the frame adv given by ODGC while using the early superflash to eat slightly delayed inputs. Characters with projectiles that can meaty while they're safe from EA (this is usually more of a hitbox thing than recovery :< ). Even just remaining safe is enough, honestly. Not many characters will be able to implement pressure the exact same way...
BUT! The kind of delayed cancel mechanics are universal and create pressure situations that are just not good to odgc in. as long as you can make them regret it, of course (low recovery normals, projectiles, safejump situations). So ***the crux of this is to have something that will not make them want to guess odgc "incorrectly"***.
Even if they feel like they can better the situation by spending their burst, theyve just lost the contingency of having it, as well as the potential offensive potency of OD, or even their AF in conjunction later in the round. It's a resource play that affects the long term (that you SHOULD take advantage of).
Safety in offense is paramount, and having a basis of hard to ODGC pressure lets you take advantage of that. If they have NO reason to ODGC a string, you can start going for stuff that would be unsafe if they did ODGC. You are still respecting the idea of it and altering your pressure structure to accommodate, but it is simply a part of the game that you need to adhere to. And frankly, if you don't lose anything for running this kind of deterrence on pressure you are just being silly for not doing it.
Fortunately ODGC EA is not as scary as i've seen people make it out to be, and does not prevent you from running "good" pressure. It turns ODGC into a MUCH MUCH harder read for reward, BUT YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH THIS BASELINE FIRST. AND THIS TWITLONGER WAS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW IT IS DONE AND WHY.
If someone's offense isn't structured well, ODGC into EA is fucked up and is a super free out. And that's what it looks like from what i've been seeing. It looks like people don't understand how to work around it.
Unfortunately, you have to play smart to fight this mechanic. Unfortunately. So please. Go, try and figure something out. And use it well.