iResist · @No_Drones
4th Aug 2014 from TwitLonger
Genesis Predictions and KCA+ for Martin ( @Allocutus )
A critique of Martin's ( @Allocutus ) blog "Why Theism is Irrational"
"Why Martin is Wrong"
>>Some versions of gods are similar to a square circle. They are logically impossible. For example a truly (absolutely) omnipotent God is a logical contradiction: the good old stone paradox (can God create a stone that's so heavy that He is unable to lift it?)<<
The correct answer to this question is: no. Employing weasel words, this is the fallacy of false dilemma. An omnipotent God CAN create a stone of any weight AND He CAN lift any stone He creates. You are creating the square circle, not theism. An inability is not an ability. God can do anything that is logically possible and does not violate His own nature.
>>We have solid experience of human affairs and we know from this experience that there's no evidence of the existence of a god who intervenes in human affairs.<<
Christians assert the Bible is historical evidence for such a God. You may not LIKE our evidence but that does not invalidate it.
>>Everything that happens in our world, everything that we observe, appears to act according to laws that we call "laws of nature". There are no documented (ie, observed and established to exist, beyond fraud or hallucination) instances of things breaching laws of nature.<<
These events ARE documented in Scripture.
Additionally, you seem to have a odd view of how a theistic God governs His creation. You seem to think that the only way God acts in His universe is as a first cause agent. Xians believe that God governs the universe by Ordinary Providence and Extraordinary Providence. Ordinary Providence is secondary cause causation (through the laws of nature). Extraordinary Providence is first cause causation (miracles or violations of natural laws). Note: sometimes Ordinary Providence can rightly be called "miraculous" b/c the event is so infrequent or b/c the event is so improbable according to the laws of nature.
We believe that for the vast majority of the time God governs by Ordinary Providence. Extraordinary Providence is primarily to demonstrate His power or to validate His prophet's message.
>>Things like these do not happen. Instead, what we observe is that everything around us is acting consistently in accordance with natural laws.<<
An argument from ignorance and an assertion w/o proof. You have not observed every event to determine no first cause agency has occurred. And again, God's primary mode of governing His universe is through 2nd cause causation.
>>Quite simply, there's no evidence (not even a sound philosophical or logical argument) that would allow me to conclude that such a god exists.<<
This is a long argument, so pardon me for reposting an existing document.
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YWYH claims in the first sentence of the first book of His self-revelation to mankind, the Bible:
[Genesis 1:1 ESV] 1 In the beginning [time begins to exist], God created the heavens [space begins to exist] and the earth [matter begins to exist]. [square brackets mine]
Predictions that logically follow from this text:
[1] The universe began to exist. > VERIFIED
[2] Time began to exist. > VERIFIED
[3] Space began to exist. > VERIFIED
[4] Matter began to exist. > VERIFIED
Which is logically and scientifically supported by the following argument:
[1] Things that begin to exist have a cause outside of themselves for beginning to exist.
[2] The universe began to exist.
[3] The universe has a transcendent cause for beginning to exist.
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If each of the two premises are more plausibly true than false, the conclusion logically and necessarily follows.
Do you wish to reject [1] and assert that things really DO pop into existence uncaused out of nothing? If so, you believe in magic and are irrational (illogical).
(NOTE: In case you are a disciple of Larry Krauss, the Quantum Vacuum is not "no-thing" - the Quantum Vacuum is "some-thing". The Quantum Vacuum itself began to exist in the Big Bang and therefore cannot be it's own cause.)
Or, perhaps you wish to deny [2] in the face of the mountain of scientific and logical evidence that the universe began to exist (i.e., the discovery of Big Bang gravity waves, Hubble's red shift, CMB radiation, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem, the logical impossibility of there being an infinite regress (in events prior to the present), the logical impossibility of an actually infinite number (of units of time prior to the present) existing, etc. If so, you are anti-science, a science-denier, and/or illogical (irrational).
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So far this argument has identified at least 3 attributes that the cause must have:
[1] Non-temporal (b/c it caused time to exist)
[2] Immaterial (b/c it caused matter to exist)
[3] Non-spacial (b/c it caused space to exist)
By extending the argument above, I can also demonstrate that the cause in [3] must also be:
[4] Uncaused (to avoid infinite regress fallacy)
[5] Eternal (to make [4] possible)
[6] Personal (b/c an eternal cause [5] causing a non-eternal effect [2] requires the cause "choose" to cause the effect. Only persons can chose)
[7] Hyper-Powerful (how much energy is contained in matter alone? Think Hiroshima)
[8] Hyper-Intelligent (b/c of the exquisite level of fine tuning of the universal constants, quantities, and physical laws to support intelligent biological observers; and b/c of the existence of extra-universal, eternal, and immaterial Laws of Logic which can only be a reflection of the cause's rational nature)
[9] Moral (b/c mankind, the highest form of life we are aware of, has a universal belief in the concept of right and wrong, and a universal awareness that we have morally offended our Creator, resulting in the proliferation of innumerable religions which all in one way or another attempt to mollify the Creator, assuage man's sense of guilt, or morally improve man)
[10] Supernatural (b/c what began to exist in the Big Bang was nature itself (i.e., the universe: time-space, mater-energy, the physical laws, etc.), it's cause is necessarily SUPER-natural (beyond nature))
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>>I don't know of anything that humans have experienced (or, in other words, observed) and which comes out of nothing. And yet, I don't propose that anything did come from nothing.<<
If you believe the universe began to exist and was uncaused, that is exactly what you believe.
>>I don't know where the Universe came from,<<
By the laws of logic and (in this universe) science, you can know that uncaused events do not occur. Note: not knowing when or where an event will occur is not the same thing as it's having no cause. The Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is no help here.
>>Theists claim to have some knowledge about matters that they have had absolutely no experience of (nobody has experienced/observed something being created of out of nothing,<<
We have never observed an event that didn't have a cause. But this doesn't help your problem anyway, with matter-energy and time-space coming into existence, what did they come into existence out of? You tell us. Time-space and matter-energy kind of encompasses everything that is known to exist.
>>Naureen asks me to demonstrate something in our human experience that comes from nothing.<<
Naureen's arguments are her own. All theists to not argue on the same level or the same way. I would not argue her way but would put it like this:
demonstrate an event or object in our human experience that isn't caused.
>>Creations of Universes are not things that we have experience of.<<
But providentially, we do have experience with the laws of logic. We know, despite your hesitation to say so, that logic is not only universal (it applies in every time/location in the universe), but is also extra-universal. If the universe did not exist, the statement "the universe does not exist" would still be true. Xians believe logical laws are to God as are moral laws, mere reflections of His rational nature (or moral nature).
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Nice article Martin, it explained well your beliefs and your reasons for them. I hope I did as well explaining mine. :)