@drpetersaunders @Eschertology @secularbloke

Here's my responses to "Ten ways redefining marriage would damage civil liberty"

Found here: http://pjsaunders.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/ten-ways-redefining-marriage-would.html

Before I start, I just want to point out that there's actually only 3 potential damages to civil liberties in this list. 3 of the items refer to organisations that don't have civil liberties and 5 of the items refer to someone losing their job for their beliefs.

1.Teachers in state schools will be forced to endorse the new definition of marriage. Those that refuse could be disciplined or even dismissed. Such action would be legal.

I think you're confusing the word "endorse" with the word "teach". Teaching someone the facts is not the same thing as telling them that you personally think it's a good idea. In addition, as federal government employees, they don't get to teach their personal opinions on social issues.

Also note that their right to hold the view that same-sex marriage is bad is in no way infringed.

While we're on the subject, what subject will be teaching children about marriage? Sex ed?

2.Parents will ultimately have no legal right to withdraw their children from lessons which endorse the new definition of marriage across the curriculum.

Nonsense. They have at least two options. They can try and work out an informal arrangement with the school to have their child do something else or they can remove their child from the school.

3.NHS/University/Armed forces chaplains could be lawfully fired by their employers if they express, even outside work time, the belief that marriage is between one man and one woman.

This seems dubious, as a chaplain they are a recognised member of their faith and would be expressing a doctrine of that faith. Don't want to be told gay marriage is bad? Don't go and see a chaplain! If that chaplain was proselytising however, that would be a different story.

4.Foster carers could be legally rejected by local authorities on the basis that they fail to embrace the new definition of marriage.

Could be or will be? This seems like another dubious one. How would the government even know they don't support same-sex marriage? Why would the government bother to ask? The government proposal you linked doesn't even mention the term foster carer

5.Public sector workers could be demoted or dismissed for expressing support for marriage between one man and one woman.

Only if they did it in their professional capacity as a public servant. an e.g. would be a registrar who refuses to register a same sex marriage. This person has no right to do such a thing, they are a public servant, an extension of the government and do not have the right to inject their opinion into their job. See recent decision from EU human rights court http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/fra-press/pages/search.aspx?i=003-4221189-5014359#{"itemid":["003-4221189-5014359"]}

6.Registrars who have a conscientious objection to the new definition of marriage will be dismissed unless they are prepared to act against their beliefs.

See above

7.Churches/mosques/synagogues could ultimately be forced to perform same-sex weddings if a Government ban on such weddings in religious premises is overturned by the European courts.

This seems EXTREMELY unlikely as it would be a breach of the churches religious freedom and anyone who wants to get married still has access to the registrar.

Also, as mentioned above, civil liberties only apply to individuals.

8 and 9 are not curtailing of civil liberties for the above reason

10 Is a potential one but I think it's much more likely the priest would lose his job for not adhering to the doctrine of the church rather than refusing to marry a gay couple. Who on earth would, upon finding out their local priest doesn't do same-sex then takes him to court to force that exact priest to do the ceremony?

The way to introduce same sex marriage without hurting anyone is to remove a church's ability to register a marriage. That way, believers can be married in the eyes of god then head down to the registrar's office and make it all official and same sex couples can be married however they want. Simple

Reply · Report Post